From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Thu Nov 4 16:01:29 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:01:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] CMB person - few days visit, nov/dev/jan - Jacques Delabrouille Message-ID: Witam, Jacques Delabrouille is likely to come to TCfA for a visit of a few days sometime during the next few months. He's a CMB cosmologist from Paris (College de France). You can see the CMB stuff he does here: http://de.arxiv.org/find/astro-ph/1/delabrouille/0/1/0/all/3/0 You can email him directly at delabrouille at cdf.in2p3.fr pozdr boud From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Thu Nov 4 17:34:47 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:34:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] PROPOSED new list for skeptics discussion DEADLINE Thu 11 Nov 18:00 Message-ID: Witam, Bartek is interested in opening a discussion list on adjani for something like a "sceptics' society". Sceptics' societies around the world are a mix of scientists and ordinary citizens curious about claims of events seen outside of the laboratory which seem to violate the known laws of physics, e.g. walking on hot coals and not having your feet burnt, UFOs, crop circles, etc. Have a look at http://www.skeptic.com and you'll see that even the aliens are convinced that the skeptics exist ;). The goal is to show to society that scientists are not just "dogmatic believers" who refuse to believe in events outside of our "narrow-minded" way of thinking, and to treat the claims seriously, and this way educate the public into the scientific method, maybe help develop better intuition of statistics and probability among ordinary people. There is a prize of Aus$100 000 (about 250 000 PLN) waiting since 1980 for someone able to prove they have psychic or paranormal powers: http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/challenge.htm There is also a US$1M prize (about 4 000 000 PLN): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#The_.241_million_challenge Some astronomers (e.g. Jayant Narlikar in India) are strongly supportive of skeptics' societies. And, who knows, a skeptics society might just possibly discover a real effect showing the next step beyond the Standard Models of physics and cosmology. (OK, personally i'm rather sceptical, but my mind is open, in principle...) Since this *could* be controversial, and i'm trying to implement consensus-method decision-making, here is the proposal: ###################################################################### PROPOSAL: new list for skeptics discussion DEADLINE Thu 11 Nov 18:00 We'll open a mailing list on adjani with a name like sceptyk-l at cosmo.torun.pl and Bartek will be the list admin. Purpose of list: discussion group to see if people in Toruń, especially scientists, are willing to spend the time setting up properly controlled experiments, writing them up properly, doing the proper statistical analyses, communicating them in public meetings etc., and communicating with other skeptics' groups around the world - especially if someone wants to try for the 250.000 PLN Australian prize money or the 4 000 000 PLN James Randi Foundation prize money. ###################################################################### Like any discussion group, IMHO it is most likely to be efficient if it is self-organising, and it will only work if there are enough people willing to spend enough time on it. But it can't hurt trying. pozdr boud From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Mon Nov 8 16:13:45 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:13:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] isolat-0.1.10.tar.gz ready for testing and comments, feedback Message-ID: Witam, A GNU GPL (not GNU, just GNU GPL!) package which implements the algebra in A Solution to the Isolatitude, Equi-area, Hierarchical Pixel-Coordinate System http://de.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0409533 is now ready. I've put it here: http://cosmo.torun.pl/GPLdownload/dodec/isolat-0.1.10.tar.gz It would be nice to have some precise, constructive comments regarding this. (Sure, negative criticisms are also welcome, but are most useful when accompanied by constructive suggestions...) Today is Mon 8 November. If there are no objections within a week, i.e. before Mon 15 November, then i will make a more formal proposal (with deadline two weeks later) for a formal consensus decision about continued distribution of the isolat package under the GNU GPL. i realise that this open method of communication means that we give a chance to "competitors"; however, i think it is best to trust in an open community. Most of us want to do good, free (as in speech) astronomy research, so IMHO we should trust our peers. In the long term, there will be more benefits than problems IMHO. BTW, just a reminder once again: http://cosmo.torun.pl/pipermail/cosmo-torun/2004-October/000269.html Numerical Recipes: http://www.library.cornell.edu/nr/bookfpdf/f0-1.pdf ; Copyright does not protect ideas, but only the expression of those ; ideas in a particular form. In the case of a computer program, the ideas ; consist of the program's methodology and algorithm, including the ; necessary sequence of steps adopted by the programmer. The expression of ; those ideas is the program source code (particularly any arbitrary or ; stylistic choices embodied in it), its derived object code, and any ; other derivative works. ; ; If you analyze the ideas contained in a program, and then express those ; ideas in your own completely different implementation, then that new ; program implementation belongs to you. That is what we have done for those ; programs in this book that are not entirely of our own devising. Isolat is *not* based on analysing the ideas in a certain non-free code which will remain unnamed here, though it *is* based on the algebraic solution to an electronically published sphere-pixelisation system. However, even if it *were* based on analysing the ideas in a certain non-free code, there would be no copyright problem, since to the best of my knowledge, the code is a "completely different implementation" to that non-free code. Of course, it must be more or less equivalent in the basic "ideas", even though the methodology and algorithm is almost certainly different, given the way the algebra is written in the paper inspired from our paper: http://de.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0409513 Nevertheless, if anybody is concerned about this, please *look at the code*, don't just rely on rumours of A said that B said that C said that ... . The code is here: http://cosmo.torun.pl/GPLdownload/dodec/isolat-0.1.10.tar.gz The library part of the code is the part which codes the actual pixel number <-> spherical coordinate calculations. There is lib/getang.f pixel -> angular coordinates and lib/getpix.f angular coordinates -> pixel and lib/fr2pol.f converts a fraction in the square to phi/pi, sin(th) or inversely The total number of lines in these three routines, apart from comments and blank lines can be found by typing: cat lib/getang.f lib/getpix.f lib/fr2pol.f |grep -v "^[cC]" |grep -v "^$" |wc It is: 409 lines, 1240 words. That's not much. If anyone finds anything in these 409 lines which is considered to be "an expression (particularly any arbitrary or stylistic choices)" similar to that in any non-free software package, please say so and we can correct this. Simply making vague comments is not going to be constructive. The code is there and corrections can of course be made: this is the whole idea of GNU GPL, the idea of coming up with perfect code right from the beginning is not the way the system works. pozdr boud From lkjhhfwusmj w amuromail.com Tue Nov 9 12:37:50 2004 From: lkjhhfwusmj w amuromail.com (Walker Albert) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 06:37:50 -0500 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] Fw: mobcap Message-ID: I noticed this email in my inbox, is this what you meant? http://www.yourrealworkscenter.com/info.html You can download full CD's, dvd's and games. Ive downloaded 6 dvd's so far. Once you've seen it get ahold of me, I want to hear your reaction - you'll go batty I know it. They walk you through the entire process of burning them to CD. I know this, the movie section has movies in it that are still in theates - I dont know about you but thats seriously impressive. See you this weekend. Candy From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Tue Nov 9 16:55:50 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:55:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] puzzled about healpix software and Numerical Recipes Message-ID: Witam, i am aware that at least one person felt that an earlier version of a package i released contained "expressions (particularly any arbitrary or stylistic choices)" identical to those in Numerical Recipes routines. My own judgment had been that the expression was different, only the "ideas, methodology and algorithm" were identical to the Numerical Recipes routines. In NR's own words, this is perfectly acceptable within the definition of copyright. And, of course, there were clear warnings that the code was inspired from NR. Nevertheless, i followed the concern, and stopped distribution. In order to avoid any ambiguity, i (and any other volunteers) will rework the code using routines from the GSL (GNU Scientific Library): http://adjani.astro.uni.torun.pl/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Cosmo/ComputerLanguages#GNU_Scientific_Library_GSL which Michał Frąckowiak brought to our attention :)) and will reexpress any remaining algorithms, possibly changing the algorithms themselves, even though this is not necessary. However, you might want to note that there seems to be something curious about a certain non-free package called Healpix_1.20. i suggest to people with a copy of this package to have a look at two files, which, apparently, exist in this package: Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 and also at the copyright notice Healpix_1.20/READ_Copyrights_Licenses.txt and then to look at the Numerical Recipes guidelines for redistributing their routines, whether binary or as source code: http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html Apparently, the file Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 contains the source code for the routines: dsvbksb dpythag dsvdcmp isort A quick search on google on, e.g., "dsvbksb" shows that NR probably cannot control distribution of these files: http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&q=dsvbksb&btnG=Szukaj+z+Google&lr= Nevertheless, there *are*, apparently, NR routines provided as source code in the file Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 which is *claimed* to be NR code, including one-line copyright notices from NR. In principle, redistributing NR routines without permission from NR is a violation of copyright - stating the copyright notice is not enough to satisfy NR. Of course, it could, in principle, be the case that the Healpix collaboration have paid "a fixed fee" for this and have permission to redistribute. However, first note the cases in which NR provides permission: http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html > if you want to make available to your users a subset of Recipes in > object, or individually callable, form, but not including source > code. We consider such requests on a case-by-case basis, with > permission more likely when they are for fewer than 20 Recipes used in > this manner. > > * In most cases of specialized software, we charge only a nominal > flat fee per Recipe for each use (unlimited number of copies). > > * The copyright notice is required, as above, and we also request that > the printed manual contain words to the effect "the procedures [your > procedure identifiers] are based on routines in Numerical Recipes: The > Art of Scientific Computing, published by Cambridge University Press, > and are used by permission." Note: "not including source code". Also: the full copyright notice (not just one line, see "EXACT WORDING OF REQUIRED COPYRIGHT NOTICES" on http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html ) is required. However, for distributing *source code*: > Finally, there is the case where our source code, or source code > based in copyright on our code, is to be made available to users. We > consider these requests on a case-by-case basis, but the success > rate of these requests is not high. ... > # If permission is given, you will need to include a notice similar > to the sample below as a comment in each routine that is based on a > Numerical Recipes routine. So Healpix_1.20 could, in principle, redistribute NR source code (probably for a fixed fee). However, this is only considered "on a case-by-case basis" and "the success rate of these requests is not high". Moreover, there would need to be the full copyright notice, and, apparently, the file Healpix_1.20/READ_Copyrights_Licenses.txt does not contain any reference to Numerical Recipes. Also, the full copyright notice needs to be included "as a comment in each routine". (GNU recommends including a big copyright announcement at the top of each routine, not just one line.) There could be one way around this: since Healpix is non-free, and requires personal email between applicants and authors, the authors could restrict distribution to people who declare that they already have access to a legal copy of NR. i'm not sure if NR would be happy, but it might work. However, this is not our problem. But it does demonstrate why an open model of code development has advantages: people worried about copyright issues are more likely to speak up earlier in an open model compared to a non-free model. Now that Healpix is so widely used, the authors might have a problem negotiating with NR based on the large number of copies already distributed. It would seem to me that their options are either to negotiate with NR and pay whatever fee is required (i'm sure ESO could pay this), or else to rewrite the parts that need NR recipes. Of course, that is their problem, not ours. pozdr boud PS: It would also seem that Healpix has been using Mahatma Gandhi's "illegal civil disobedience" technique in protest against the patent on the LZW compression algorithm for making gif files. This file Healpix_1.20/src/f90/lib/gd.c apparently contains the ppmtogif.c code The code itself is freely redistributable. However, *usage* of the code was probably illegal, since the *algorithm* was patented. This is different from copyright, which only protects the expression of an algorithm and not the algorithm itself. See http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/ppmtogif.html > If you use ppmtogif without the -nolzw option, you are using a > patent on the LZW compression method which is owned by Unisys, and > in all probability you do not have a license from Unisys to do > so. Unisys typically asks $5000 for a license for trivial use of the > patent. Unisys has never enforced the patent against trivial > users. The patent expired in the US in 2003 and is due to expire in > other countries in 2004. So the patent has now expired (e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3007862.stm ) but for many years, more "conservative" GNU/Linux groups like GNU, Debian recommended using PNG instead of GIF, or else used a pseudo-GIF format. More radical software groups and probably millions and millions of users (probably including you!) simply used the algorithm despite the patent. A big battle is continuing against software patents in Europe. Go to http://kwiki.ffii.org/SwpatplEn to see info on what Polish poseł in the European parliament are doing or http://kwiki.ffii.org/FfiiprojEn or http://www.gnu.org/server/takeaction.pl.html for more on what you can do concretely. From blew w astro.uni.torun.pl Fri Nov 12 15:32:25 2004 From: blew w astro.uni.torun.pl (Bartosz Lew) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:32:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] looking for hints on velocity distribution of electrons in relativistic jets Message-ID: Hi everybody, I'm interested if anybody has some quick nice references or ideas regarding - as in the subject - what the velocities in relativistic jets can be - what this can depend on from theoretical considerations/modelling? The bottom line is, can we have some constrainst on these velocities from models, or models and ovservations (if so - what observables are needed) and what this can depend on ? Is it very bad to assume that these can span from say some arbitrary value to one in \beta space with flat statistical distribution ? Can we have some hints on this distribution ? Motyl, I could use your help here ? I don't have time for getting through tons of papers. Bartek From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Fri Nov 12 15:53:51 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:53:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] looking for hints on velocity distribution of electrons in relativistic jets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi Bartek, You might want to try cosmo-pl at cosmo.torun.pl - the list hasn't been used much, but there are many AGN people on it (mostly from CAMK Wawa), and this is probably a good practical research question. It's also a good test for them. ;) Of course, możesz pisać w (pl), i ewentualnie podpisać coś jak "doktorant, CA-UMK" po "Bartek" żeby jest więcej szans mieć odpowiedź, bo chyba (jeszcze ;) wszyscy nie Ci znają. pozdr boud On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bartosz Lew wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > I'm interested if anybody has some quick nice references or ideas > regarding - as in the subject - what the velocities in relativistic > jets can be - what this can depend on from theoretical > considerations/modelling? > > The bottom line is, can we have some constrainst on these velocities from > models, or models and ovservations (if so - what observables are needed) > and what this can depend on ? > > Is it very bad to assume that these can span from say some arbitrary > value to one in \beta space with flat statistical distribution ? > > Can we have some hints on this distribution ? > > Motyl, I could use your help here ? > I don't have time for getting through tons of papers. > > Bartek > > _______________________________________________ > Cosmo-torun mailing list > Cosmo-torun w cosmo.torun.pl > http://cosmo.torun.pl/mailman/listinfo/cosmo-torun > From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Sat Nov 13 15:30:08 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:30:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] copying algorithms: GNU Scientific Library vs Numerical Recipes Message-ID: Witam, What can be legally (and morally) copied from a program under a restrictive copyright is "the algorithms, the ideas" but not the particular way of expressing them. So the practical question is: where is the borderline? In the GSL (GNU Scientific Library), http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/, GNU provides, e.g. in Version 1.1.1, the version below of NR's ran0 routine. i'm sure most of us have access to a legal copy of the NR routine, or else a little googling shows e.g. http://cc.oulu.fi/~tf/tiedostot/pub/nrf/ran0.f Well, to me these look extremely similar to one another. Even the constants: static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; are exactly identical to those in the NR routines, they even have the same names, except for the "i". Is this really a different "expression"? In any case, IMHO noone can deny that the authors of the GSL routines (there is also ran1, ran2, ran3) have very likely had access to the NR source code. Sure, they translated it to C and added some stuff, but it's the same algorithm, it's essentially the same sequence of steps. Anyway, GSL has lots of really cool stuff. :) Let's defend scientific software freedom! pozdr boud ---------------------------------------------------------------------- /* rng/ran0.c * * Copyright (C) 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 James Theiler, Brian Gough * * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at * your option) any later version. * * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but * WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU * General Public License for more details. * * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software * Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. */ #include #include #include #include /* This is an implementation of the algorithm used in Numerical Recipe's ran0 generator. It is the same as MINSTD with an XOR mask of 123459876 on the seed. The period of this generator is 2^31. Note, if you choose a seed of 123459876 it would give a degenerate series 0,0,0,0, ... I've made that into an error. */ static inline unsigned long int ran0_get (void *vstate); static double ran0_get_double (void *vstate); static void ran0_set (void *state, unsigned long int s); static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; typedef struct { unsigned long int x; } ran0_state_t; static inline unsigned long int ran0_get (void *vstate) { ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; const unsigned long int x = state->x; const long int h = x / q; const long int t = a * (x - h * q) - h * r; if (t < 0) { state->x = t + m; } else { state->x = t; } return state->x; } static double ran0_get_double (void *vstate) { return ran0_get (vstate) / 2147483647.0 ; } static void ran0_set (void *vstate, unsigned long int s) { ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; if (s == mask) { GSL_ERROR_VOID ("ran0 should not use seed == mask", GSL_EINVAL); } state->x = s ^ mask; return; } static const gsl_rng_type ran0_type = {"ran0", /* name */ 2147483646, /* RAND_MAX */ 1, /* RAND_MIN */ sizeof (ran0_state_t), &ran0_set, &ran0_get, &ran0_get_double}; const gsl_rng_type *gsl_rng_ran0 = &ran0_type; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From michalf w ncac.torun.pl Mon Nov 15 17:16:04 2004 From: michalf w ncac.torun.pl (Michal Frackowiak) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:16:04 +0100 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] puzzled about healpix software and Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4198D644.5090609@ncac.torun.pl> It seems that it is far more complicated that it appeared to be. I suppose however that there will be no lawsuit against HEALPIX because of very limited number of users - compared to other commercial applications. It confirms my view that neither the copyright law nor open software concept apply to the scientific software. People just do not care. Which is the situation I disklike a lot. And if you want to change it you will most likely not be recognized. Because what matters is the numerical result/graph/plot/confidence level/equation/final result. And this is because main channel of communication and publishing is via refereed papers, and not webpages/discussion etc. Ok, but it is the system the salaries are based on. Years will pass until it is changed. Not our until we live I IMHO. Boud - sorry for the "offensive" emails regarding copyrights and the gnu-style. Although I do not in 100% agree with the way you act, I agree with the reasons and motives in most! best regards m. Boud Roukema wrote: > Witam, > i am aware that at least one person felt that an earlier version of > a package i released contained "expressions (particularly any > arbitrary or stylistic choices)" identical to those in Numerical > Recipes routines. > > My own judgment had been that the expression was different, only the > "ideas, methodology and algorithm" were identical to the Numerical Recipes > routines. In NR's own words, this is perfectly acceptable within the > definition of copyright. And, of course, there were clear warnings > that the code was inspired from NR. > > Nevertheless, i followed the concern, and stopped distribution. > > In order to avoid any ambiguity, i (and any other volunteers) will > rework the code using routines from the GSL (GNU Scientific Library): > > http://adjani.astro.uni.torun.pl/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Cosmo/ComputerLanguages#GNU_Scientific_Library_GSL > > which Michał Frąckowiak brought to our attention :)) and will reexpress > any remaining algorithms, possibly changing the algorithms themselves, > even though this is not necessary. > > > However, you might want to note that there seems to be something > curious about a certain non-free package called Healpix_1.20. > > i suggest to people with a copy of this package to have a look at > two files, which, apparently, exist in this package: > > Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 > > and also at the copyright notice > Healpix_1.20/READ_Copyrights_Licenses.txt > > and then to look at the Numerical Recipes guidelines for redistributing > their routines, whether binary or as source code: > > http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html > > > > Apparently, the file Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 > contains the source code for the routines: > > dsvbksb > dpythag > dsvdcmp > isort > > A quick search on google on, e.g., "dsvbksb" shows that NR probably > cannot control distribution of these files: > > http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&q=dsvbksb&btnG=Szukaj+z+Google&lr= > > Nevertheless, there *are*, apparently, NR routines provided as source > code in the file > Healpix_1.20/src/f90/mod/num_rec.f90 > which is *claimed* to be NR code, including one-line copyright notices from NR. > > In principle, redistributing NR routines without permission from NR is > a violation of copyright - stating the copyright notice is not enough > to satisfy NR. > > Of course, it could, in principle, be the case that the Healpix > collaboration have paid "a fixed fee" for this and have permission > to redistribute. > > However, first note the cases in which NR provides permission: > http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html > > >>if you want to make available to your users a subset of Recipes in >>object, or individually callable, form, but not including source >>code. We consider such requests on a case-by-case basis, with >>permission more likely when they are for fewer than 20 Recipes used in >>this manner. >> >>* In most cases of specialized software, we charge only a nominal >>flat fee per Recipe for each use (unlimited number of copies). >> >>* The copyright notice is required, as above, and we also request that >>the printed manual contain words to the effect "the procedures [your >>procedure identifiers] are based on routines in Numerical Recipes: The >>Art of Scientific Computing, published by Cambridge University Press, >>and are used by permission." > > > Note: "not including source code". > > Also: the full copyright notice (not just one line, see > "EXACT WORDING OF REQUIRED COPYRIGHT NOTICES" on > http://www.numerical-recipes.com/com/info-permissions.html ) > is required. > > However, for distributing *source code*: > > >> Finally, there is the case where our source code, or source code >>based in copyright on our code, is to be made available to users. We >>consider these requests on a case-by-case basis, but the success >>rate of these requests is not high. > > ... > > >># If permission is given, you will need to include a notice similar >>to the sample below as a comment in each routine that is based on a >>Numerical Recipes routine. > > > So Healpix_1.20 could, in principle, redistribute NR source code > (probably for a fixed fee). > > However, this is only considered "on a case-by-case basis" and "the > success rate of these requests is not high". > > Moreover, there would need to be the full copyright notice, and, > apparently, the file > Healpix_1.20/READ_Copyrights_Licenses.txt > does not contain any reference to Numerical Recipes. > > Also, the full copyright notice needs to be included "as a comment > in each routine". (GNU recommends including a big copyright announcement > at the top of each routine, not just one line.) > > There could be one way around this: since Healpix is non-free, and > requires personal email between applicants and authors, the authors > could restrict distribution to people who declare that they already > have access to a legal copy of NR. i'm not sure if NR would be happy, > but it might work. > > However, this is not our problem. But it does demonstrate why an open > model of code development has advantages: people worried about > copyright issues are more likely to speak up earlier in an > open model compared to a non-free model. Now that Healpix is so widely > used, the authors might have a problem negotiating with NR based on > the large number of copies already distributed. > > It would seem to me that their options are either to negotiate with NR > and pay whatever fee is required (i'm sure ESO could pay this), or > else to rewrite the parts that need NR recipes. > > Of course, that is their problem, not ours. > > pozdr > boud > > > PS: It would also seem that Healpix has been using Mahatma Gandhi's > "illegal civil disobedience" technique in protest against the patent > on the LZW compression algorithm for making gif files. This file > Healpix_1.20/src/f90/lib/gd.c > apparently contains the ppmtogif.c code > > The code itself is freely redistributable. However, *usage* of the > code was probably illegal, since the *algorithm* was patented. This is > different from copyright, which only protects the expression of an > algorithm and not the algorithm itself. See > > http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/ppmtogif.html > > >> If you use ppmtogif without the -nolzw option, you are using a >>patent on the LZW compression method which is owned by Unisys, and >>in all probability you do not have a license from Unisys to do >>so. Unisys typically asks $5000 for a license for trivial use of the >>patent. Unisys has never enforced the patent against trivial >>users. The patent expired in the US in 2003 and is due to expire in >>other countries in 2004. > > > So the patent has now expired (e.g. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3007862.stm ) > but for many years, more "conservative" GNU/Linux groups like GNU, Debian > recommended using PNG instead of GIF, or else used a pseudo-GIF format. > > More radical software groups and probably millions and millions of users > (probably including you!) simply used the algorithm despite the patent. > > A big battle is continuing against software patents in Europe. > > Go to > http://kwiki.ffii.org/SwpatplEn > to see info on what Polish poseł in the European parliament are doing > or > http://kwiki.ffii.org/FfiiprojEn > or > http://www.gnu.org/server/takeaction.pl.html > for more on what you can do concretely. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cosmo-torun mailing list > Cosmo-torun w cosmo.torun.pl > http://cosmo.torun.pl/mailman/listinfo/cosmo-torun -- -------------------------------------------------------- Michal Frackowiak mail: michalf w ncac.torun.pl www: http://www.ncac.torun.pl/~michalf jabber im: michal_frackowiak w jabber.pl phone: +48 (56) 6219319 int. 22, fax: +48 (56) 6219381 -------------------------------------------------------- Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomical Center Department of Astrophysics in Torun (CAMK Torun) ul. Rabianska 8, 87-100 Torun, Poland http://www.ncac.torun.pl, http://www.camk.edu.pl -------------------------------------------------------- -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: michalf.vcf Typ: text/x-vcard Rozmiar: 267 bytes Opis: nie znany Adres: -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: signature.asc Typ: application/pgp-signature Rozmiar: 256 bytes Opis: OpenPGP digital signature Adres: From michalf w ncac.torun.pl Mon Nov 15 17:27:13 2004 From: michalf w ncac.torun.pl (Michal Frackowiak) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:27:13 +0100 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] copying algorithms: GNU Scientific Library vs Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4198D8E1.5070104@ncac.torun.pl> Oh, I have just read this email. This is somehow terrifying. So the answer should be "don't care" I suppose. In this case the authors of GSL are the one to blame and not the user of GSL. I agree the copyright of algorithms' code is tricky. I wonder if anyone understands it.... I think GSL violates the NR license. But it is their problem. eeee..... perhaps we should just use it? ;-) m. Boud Roukema wrote: > Witam, > What can be legally (and morally) copied from a program > under a restrictive copyright is "the algorithms, the ideas" but not > the particular way of expressing them. > > So the practical question is: where is the borderline? > > In the GSL (GNU Scientific Library), http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/, > GNU provides, e.g. in Version 1.1.1, the version below of NR's > ran0 routine. > > i'm sure most of us have access to a legal copy of the NR routine, > or else a little googling shows e.g. > > http://cc.oulu.fi/~tf/tiedostot/pub/nrf/ran0.f > > Well, to me these look extremely similar to one another. Even the > constants: > > static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; > static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; > > are exactly identical to those in the NR routines, they even have the > same names, except for the "i". Is this really a different "expression"? > > > In any case, IMHO noone can deny that the authors of the GSL routines > (there is also ran1, ran2, ran3) have very likely had access to the NR > source code. > > Sure, they translated it to C and added some stuff, but it's the > same algorithm, it's essentially the same sequence of steps. > > > Anyway, GSL has lots of really cool stuff. :) Let's defend scientific > software freedom! > > > pozdr > boud > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > /* rng/ran0.c > * > * Copyright (C) 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 James Theiler, Brian Gough > * > * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify > * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by > * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at > * your option) any later version. > * > * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but > * WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU > * General Public License for more details. > * > * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License > * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software > * Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. > */ > > #include > #include > #include > #include > > /* This is an implementation of the algorithm used in Numerical > Recipe's ran0 generator. It is the same as MINSTD with an XOR mask > of 123459876 on the seed. > > The period of this generator is 2^31. > > Note, if you choose a seed of 123459876 it would give a degenerate > series 0,0,0,0, ... I've made that into an error. */ > > static inline unsigned long int ran0_get (void *vstate); > static double ran0_get_double (void *vstate); > static void ran0_set (void *state, unsigned long int s); > > static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; > static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; > > typedef struct > { > unsigned long int x; > } > ran0_state_t; > > static inline unsigned long int > ran0_get (void *vstate) > { > ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; > > const unsigned long int x = state->x; > > const long int h = x / q; > const long int t = a * (x - h * q) - h * r; > > if (t < 0) > { > state->x = t + m; > } > else > { > state->x = t; > } > > return state->x; > } > > static double > ran0_get_double (void *vstate) > { > return ran0_get (vstate) / 2147483647.0 ; > } > > static void > ran0_set (void *vstate, unsigned long int s) > { > ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; > > if (s == mask) > { > GSL_ERROR_VOID ("ran0 should not use seed == mask", > GSL_EINVAL); > } > > state->x = s ^ mask; > > return; > } > > static const gsl_rng_type ran0_type = > {"ran0", /* name */ > 2147483646, /* RAND_MAX */ > 1, /* RAND_MIN */ > sizeof (ran0_state_t), > &ran0_set, > &ran0_get, > &ran0_get_double}; > > const gsl_rng_type *gsl_rng_ran0 = &ran0_type; > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Cosmo-torun mailing list > Cosmo-torun w cosmo.torun.pl > http://cosmo.torun.pl/mailman/listinfo/cosmo-torun -- -------------------------------------------------------- Michal Frackowiak mail: michalf w ncac.torun.pl www: http://www.ncac.torun.pl/~michalf jabber im: michal_frackowiak w jabber.pl phone: +48 (56) 6219319 int. 22, fax: +48 (56) 6219381 -------------------------------------------------------- Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomical Center Department of Astrophysics in Torun (CAMK Torun) ul. Rabianska 8, 87-100 Torun, Poland http://www.ncac.torun.pl, http://www.camk.edu.pl -------------------------------------------------------- -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: michalf.vcf Typ: text/x-vcard Rozmiar: 267 bytes Opis: nie znany Adres: -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: signature.asc Typ: application/pgp-signature Rozmiar: 256 bytes Opis: OpenPGP digital signature Adres: From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Wed Nov 17 13:56:15 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:56:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] puzzled about healpix software and Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: <4198D644.5090609@ncac.torun.pl> References: <4198D644.5090609@ncac.torun.pl> Message-ID: Witam, On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Michal Frackowiak wrote: > It seems that it is far more complicated that it appeared to be. Like physics :). > I suppose however that there will be no lawsuit against HEALPIX because > of very limited number of users - compared to other commercial applications. > > It confirms my view that neither the copyright law nor open software > concept apply to the scientific software. People just do not care. Which > is the situation I disklike a lot. And if you want to change it you will > most likely not be recognized. Because what matters is the numerical > result/graph/plot/confidence level/equation/final result. And this is > because main channel of communication and publishing is via refereed > papers, and not webpages/discussion etc. Well, have a look at Bruzual & Charlot's main paper about their evolutionary stellar population synthesis code: http://cdsads.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1993ApJ...405..538B and look at "Citations to the Article (1224)". That's 1224 citations of one article. Gustavo Bruzual is on the organizing Committee of the IAU Commission on Cosmology http://www.roe.ac.uk/japwww/iau47/ and Stephane Charlot quite quickly got a faculty position at the IAP in Paris. The copyright is (was, anyway) not full GPL, but that was back in 1993 - the spirit of distribution was very open and hardly anyone was talking about GNU/Linux. i had read the GPL manifesto in emacs ;) but i thought (at the time) that this was only a *project* for something a long way in the future... In any case, IMHO both authors got plenty of "career" benefit from distributing their software as freely as they knew how to. > Ok, but it is the system the salaries are based on. Years will pass > until it is changed. Not our until we live I IMHO. > because main channel of communication and publishing is via refereed > papers, and not webpages/discussion etc. http://de.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0411275 Demographic and Citation Trends in Astrophysical Journal papers and Preprints : On average, ApJ papers posted on astro-ph are cited more than twice : as often as those that are not posted on astro-ph. Most likely it's probably similar for A&A and MNRAS. IMHO, refereed papers (whether or not on astro-ph) are really very similar to webpages/publicly archived mailing lists - the only difference is the time scale and the depth. And IMHO, if the discussion on mailing lists, webpages is effective, it will lead to good published papers. We might have to have a very long author list, but where's the problem? Observers' papers are getting longer and longer author lists. Anyway, time will tell... :) > Boud - sorry for the "offensive" emails regarding copyrights and the > gnu-style. Although I do not in 100% agree with the way you act, I agree > with the reasons and motives in most! Thanks - no hard feelings. i appreciate your contributions. :) pozdr boud From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Wed Nov 17 14:08:56 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:08:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] copying algorithms: GNU Scientific Library vs Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: <4198D8E1.5070104@ncac.torun.pl> References: <4198D8E1.5070104@ncac.torun.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Michal Frackowiak wrote: > Oh, I have just read this email. This is somehow terrifying. > So the answer should be "don't care" I suppose. In this case the authors > of GSL are the one to blame and not the user of GSL. > > I agree the copyright of algorithms' code is tricky. I wonder if anyone > understands it.... i guess we have to agree to disagree on this. To me, all the stuff i've previously cited says "algorithms are not copyrighted, only the way they are expressed (especially arbitrary and stylistic choices) is copyrighted". So to me the *principle* is clear, it's just the application in practice which is difficult. So the question is: what part is algorithm, what part is expression, especially arbitrary and stylistic choices? > I think GSL violates the NR license. But it is their problem. OK, so you are consistent. :) Maybe you should write to Richard Stallman ;) > eeee..... perhaps we should just use it? ;-) Well, we probably have consensus on that. :) Anyway, any concrete comments, bug reports (or revised versions or forked distributions ;) of http://cosmo.torun.pl/GPLdownload/dodec/isolat-0.1.11.tar.gz would be welcome. As long as there's only a small number of developers, we probably don't need a cvs system. pozdr boud > Boud Roukema wrote: > > Witam, > > What can be legally (and morally) copied from a program > > under a restrictive copyright is "the algorithms, the ideas" but not > > the particular way of expressing them. > > > > So the practical question is: where is the borderline? > > > > In the GSL (GNU Scientific Library), http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/, > > GNU provides, e.g. in Version 1.1.1, the version below of NR's > > ran0 routine. > > > > i'm sure most of us have access to a legal copy of the NR routine, > > or else a little googling shows e.g. > > > > http://cc.oulu.fi/~tf/tiedostot/pub/nrf/ran0.f > > > > Well, to me these look extremely similar to one another. Even the > > constants: > > > > static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; > > static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; > > > > are exactly identical to those in the NR routines, they even have the > > same names, except for the "i". Is this really a different "expression"? > > > > > > In any case, IMHO noone can deny that the authors of the GSL routines > > (there is also ran1, ran2, ran3) have very likely had access to the NR > > source code. > > > > Sure, they translated it to C and added some stuff, but it's the > > same algorithm, it's essentially the same sequence of steps. > > > > > > Anyway, GSL has lots of really cool stuff. :) Let's defend scientific > > software freedom! > > > > > > pozdr > > boud > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > /* rng/ran0.c > > * > > * Copyright (C) 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 James Theiler, Brian Gough > > * > > * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify > > * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by > > * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at > > * your option) any later version. > > * > > * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but > > * WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > > * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU > > * General Public License for more details. > > * > > * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License > > * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software > > * Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. > > */ > > > > #include > > #include > > #include > > #include > > > > /* This is an implementation of the algorithm used in Numerical > > Recipe's ran0 generator. It is the same as MINSTD with an XOR mask > > of 123459876 on the seed. > > > > The period of this generator is 2^31. > > > > Note, if you choose a seed of 123459876 it would give a degenerate > > series 0,0,0,0, ... I've made that into an error. */ > > > > static inline unsigned long int ran0_get (void *vstate); > > static double ran0_get_double (void *vstate); > > static void ran0_set (void *state, unsigned long int s); > > > > static const long int m = 2147483647, a = 16807, q = 127773, r = 2836; > > static const unsigned long int mask = 123459876; > > > > typedef struct > > { > > unsigned long int x; > > } > > ran0_state_t; > > > > static inline unsigned long int > > ran0_get (void *vstate) > > { > > ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; > > > > const unsigned long int x = state->x; > > > > const long int h = x / q; > > const long int t = a * (x - h * q) - h * r; > > > > if (t < 0) > > { > > state->x = t + m; > > } > > else > > { > > state->x = t; > > } > > > > return state->x; > > } > > > > static double > > ran0_get_double (void *vstate) > > { > > return ran0_get (vstate) / 2147483647.0 ; > > } > > > > static void > > ran0_set (void *vstate, unsigned long int s) > > { > > ran0_state_t *state = (ran0_state_t *) vstate; > > > > if (s == mask) > > { > > GSL_ERROR_VOID ("ran0 should not use seed == mask", > > GSL_EINVAL); > > } > > > > state->x = s ^ mask; > > > > return; > > } > > > > static const gsl_rng_type ran0_type = > > {"ran0", /* name */ > > 2147483646, /* RAND_MAX */ > > 1, /* RAND_MIN */ > > sizeof (ran0_state_t), > > &ran0_set, > > &ran0_get, > > &ran0_get_double}; > > > > const gsl_rng_type *gsl_rng_ran0 = &ran0_type; > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cosmo-torun mailing list > > Cosmo-torun at cosmo.torun.pl > > http://cosmo.torun.pl/mailman/listinfo/cosmo-torun > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Michal Frackowiak > mail: michalf at ncac.torun.pl > www: http://www.ncac.torun.pl/~michalf > jabber im: michal_frackowiak at jabber.pl > phone: +48 (56) 6219319 int. 22, fax: +48 (56) 6219381 > -------------------------------------------------------- > Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomical Center > Department of Astrophysics in Torun (CAMK Torun) > ul. Rabianska 8, 87-100 Torun, Poland > http://www.ncac.torun.pl, http://www.camk.edu.pl > -------------------------------------------------------- > From michalf w ncac.torun.pl Fri Nov 19 00:06:36 2004 From: michalf w ncac.torun.pl (Michal Frackowiak) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:06:36 +0100 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] copying algorithms: GNU Scientific Library vs Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: References: <4198D8E1.5070104@ncac.torun.pl> Message-ID: <419D2AFC.5090504@ncac.torun.pl> even if you are a single developer a cvs is handful in a number of ways. e.g. : - you can always come back to the code for a specific date - you can mark different versions with release tag and come back to ("download") any of them - you can make branches of code (ok, I never use these) - you have all the development process in one place and can backup it easily all the benefits come from the fact that cvs stores incramental differences of any change in the code you make. sometimes it is useful to come back to the code a few days ago. if you use cvs it is not a problem. if not - you have to make "backups" every few days or so. and it is really not that difficult to use. there are some frontends but the commandline is also nice. if you use c/c++ you could give a try to www.eclipse.org with www.eclipse.org/cdt plugin. it nicely integrates with a cvs system, debugger etc. it is a complete (and outstanding) development platform. free. ;-) pozdr m. > As long as there's only a small number of developers, we probably > don't need a cvs system. > > pozdr > boud > -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: michalf.vcf Typ: text/x-vcard Rozmiar: 267 bytes Opis: nie znany Adres: -------------- następna część --------- Binarny załącznik wiadomości został usunięty... Nazwa: signature.asc Typ: application/pgp-signature Rozmiar: 256 bytes Opis: OpenPGP digital signature Adres: From boud w astro.uni.torun.pl Fri Nov 19 12:58:59 2004 From: boud w astro.uni.torun.pl (Boud Roukema) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:58:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Cosmo-torun] copying algorithms: GNU Scientific Library vs Numerical Recipes In-Reply-To: <419D2AFC.5090504@ncac.torun.pl> References: <4198D8E1.5070104@ncac.torun.pl> <419D2AFC.5090504@ncac.torun.pl> Message-ID: witam, On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Michal Frackowiak wrote: > even if you are a single developer a cvs is handful in a number of ways. > e.g. : > > - you can always come back to the code for a specific date > - you can mark different versions with release tag and come back to > ("download") any of them > - you can make branches of code (ok, I never use these) > - you have all the development process in one place and can backup it easily > > all the benefits come from the fact that cvs stores incramental > differences of any change in the code you make. sometimes it is useful > to come back to the code a few days ago. if you use cvs it is not a > problem. if not - you have to make "backups" every few days or so. > > and it is really not that difficult to use. there are some frontends but > the commandline is also nice. Thanks for the motivation. It's on my todo list. ;) > if you use c/c++ you could give a try to www.eclipse.org with > www.eclipse.org/cdt plugin. it nicely integrates with a cvs system, > debugger etc. it is a complete (and outstanding) development platform. > free. ;-) Free, but GPL incompatible :( http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Public_License : This additional requirement renders the CPL incompatible with the GPL : (in the opinion of Eben Moglen), though it is possible that a future : version of the GPL will adopt a similar, compatible clause. But probably the other reason for incompatibility is that it doesn't sufficiently discourage non-free code: : while still retaining the ability to use the CPL'd content with : software licensed under other licenses, including many commercial : licenses. And then just to confuse things, the eclipse web site says that it's using version 0.5 of the CPL: http://www.eclipse.org/legal/cpl-v05.html (i haven't checked the source). Personally, i'd put this on a "waiting to hear other opinions in the free software community" list... But thanks for the suggestion anyway. Meanwhile, i'll add anjuta, which is also an IDE, to my todo list: http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=anjuta&searchon=names&subword=1&version=all&release=all pozdr boud From ZSIAOOPZ w motor.ru Sun Nov 21 12:16:06 2004 From: ZSIAOOPZ w motor.ru (Neil Christensen) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:16:06 +0300 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] --- SPAM --- genralpractice, 40,000 hospitals, 25,000 nursing homes and 400,000 doctors Message-ID: Błędnie zakodowany tekst został usunięty... Plik: nie znany Url: -------------- następna część --------- Błędnie zakodowany tekst został usunięty... 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MedCom continues to hold the nation's most extensive and reliable databases of key decision-makers in the health care market. Available exclusively on CD-Rom (Excel), the data can be used on an unlimited basis. It is easily exportable to other programs for mailing or faxing purposes. For a limited time, this extensive database is offered at an introductory Price of $195 (reg. $745). To order, please print this e-mail, complete the information below and fax it to 416-765-0029 (tel: 416-765-0028). NAME: TITLE: ORGANIZATION: ADDRESS: CITY: STATE: POSTAL: TEL: FAX: EMAIL: From wmwvuhveauwqzn w whale-mail.com Fri Nov 26 00:52:57 2004 From: wmwvuhveauwqzn w whale-mail.com (Clarence Montano) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:52:57 -0300 Subject: [Cosmo-torun] --- SPAM --- 2005 doctors directory plastic surgery, oncology, 40,000 hospitals, 25,000 nursing homes and 400,000 doctors. Message-ID: <4408547204.99072@wmwvuhveauwqzn@whale-mail.com> The New 2005 United States Healthcare Database. This complete database includes all hospitals, nursing homes, and physicians in the country. In a rapidly-changing industry, current healthcare information is an invaluable resource to businesses and organizations. The United States Healthcare Database includes comprehensive information on more than 7,000 hospitals, 25,000 nursing homes and 400,000 doctors. It is the most extensive and reliable mailing list and database of key decision makers in the health care market. Each record is indexed by such features as name, address, phone and fax. The database is available in Excel format on CD Rom. It is designed for mailing lists and merges. The data can be selected by state or other criteria such as type of practice. It can be used on an unlimited basis. For the past 14 years, MedCom has maintained the most comprehensive healthcare lists. Our directories are 100% telephone verified and updated every quarter. MedCom continues to hold the nation's most extensive and reliable databases of key decision-makers in the health care market. Available exclusively on CD-Rom (Excel), the data can be used on an unlimited basis. It is easily exportable to other programs for mailing or faxing purposes. For a limited time, this extensive database is offered at an introductory Price of $195 (reg. $745). To order, please print this e-mail, complete the information below and fax it to 416-765-0029 (tel: 416-765-0028). NAME: TITLE: ORGANIZATION: ADDRESS: CITY: STATE: POSTAL: TEL: FAX: EMAIL: -------------- następna część --------- Błędnie zakodowany tekst został usunięty... Plik: SpamAssassinReport.txt Url: